Spotlight on Oddballs: 1995 Jimmy Dean

1995 Jimmy Dean All Time Greats

1995 Jimmy Dean All Time Greats

The 1995 Jimmy Dean set is the 4th year the sausage company produced a set of baseball cards (1991-1995 excluding the 1994 strike year). It would also be its last. The 1995 set was its smallest of its regular sets (1991 had 25 cards, 1992 had 18 cards and 1993 had 28 cards). It was also the first time they produced a set involving retired players as well as having autograph versions of some of those cards (3 of the 6 cards).

The card fronts were border-less with a white framing line just on the inside of the four edges. The top-right (or left) identified the set (a graphic design stating “1995 All Time Greats Collector’s Set” was printed on each card). The bottom left (or right) featured the Jimmy Dean logo with the name of the player below).

The backs of the cards had the same two graphics as the front, both at the top, with the player’s accomplishments and personal information in list form as well as a short baseball biography and career stat-line below. The backs also have a framing line but this time it was in gold.

The cards were not sanctioned by Major League Baseball so all MLB logos were airbrushed away.

Included in specially marked packages of sausages were one plastic-wrapped card from the set as well as an autograph offer form. With $7.00 and two proofs of purchase you could choose one of the three autographed cards (Al Kaline, Billy Williams, or Catfish Hunter).

The autographed cards were the regular cards with the player signature on the front in blue ink. Along with the card itself you also received a Certificate of Authenticity card.

The 1995 Jimmy Dean set was not very popular with collectors and Jimmy Dean stopped producing cards after this set was issued. The set was too small to pose a challenge for collectors. It featured retired players rather than the star players of the time. Even the signature cards, the best part about the set, were mostly ignored. They still sell at the lower range of signature card prices so if you are a fan of any of the three players and are on a limited budget these cards may interest you.

Probably the most enjoyable way to collect this set would be to include it as part of a Jimmy Dean master collection where you would search out all the Jimmy Dean cards from 1991 onward. Where this set has only six cards, nine with the auto cards, the complete Jimmy Dean Collection is 104 cards, a much more challenging pursuit. Here are the sets you would need:

  1. 1991 Jimmy Dean – 25 cards
  2. 1992 Jimmy Dean – 18 cards
  3. 1992 Jimmy Dean Living Legends – 6 cards
  4. 1992 Jimmy Dean Rookie Stars – 9 cards
  5. 1993 Jimmy Dean – 28 cards
  6. 1993 Jimmy Dean Rookies – 9 cards
  7. 1995 Jimmy Dean All Time Greats  – 6 cards (+3 Auto’s)

1995 Jimmy Dean All Time Greats Images:

 

The Hall of Fame Challenge, Post Four

My latest purchases came in and with it I am coming closer to finishing the cards I need for the inductees from 2016 back to 2014.

The Hall of Fame Challenge Post Four, Graded

The Hall of Fame Challenge Post Four, Graded

The Hall of Fame Challenge Post Four, Ungraded

The Hall of Fame Challenge Post Four, Ungraded

The ones that will be added to the wall are the following:

1990 Leaf #300 – Frank Thomas RC
1990 O-Pee-Chee #414 – Frank Thomas RC
1987 Leaf #36 – Greg Maddux RC
1988 Fleer #539 – Tom Glavine RC

As a reminder, here is the list of all HoF members and their cards from 2016 to 2013 (I’m collecting chronologically backward in years as you remember):

2016

1989 Bowman Ken Griffey Jr. RC #220
1989 Donruss Ken Griffey Jr. RC #33
1989 Fleer Ken Griffey Jr. RC #548
1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. RC #1
1992 Bowman Mike Piazza RC #461

2015

1988 Fleer Update Craig Biggio RC #U-89
1988 Score Rookie/Traded Craig Biggio RC #103T
1989 Donruss Randy Johnson RC #42
1989 Fleer Randy Johnson RC #381
1989 O-Pee-Chee Randy Johnson RC #186
1989 Score Randy Johnson RC #645
1989 Topps Randy Johnson RC #647
1989 Upper Deck Randy Johnson RC #25
1991 Upper Deck Final Edition Pedro Martinez RC #2F
1988 Fleer Update John Smoltz RC #U-74

2014

1969 Topps Bobby Cox RC #237
1988 Donruss Tom Glavine RC #644
1988 Fleer Tom Glavine RC #539
1988 Score Tom Glavine RC #638
1988 Topps Tom Glavine RC #779
1964 Topps Tony LaRussa RC #244
1987 Donruss Greg Maddux RC #36
1987 Leaf Greg Maddux RC #36
1990 Bowman Frank Thomas RC #320
1990 Leaf Frank Thomas RC #300
1990 O-Pee-Chee Frank Thomas RC #414
1990 Score Frank Thomas RC #663
1990 Topps Frank Thomas RC #414
1962 Topps Joe Torre RC #218

I highlighted in orange the cards I have for the wall. That means I have only five cards remaining (ungraded) before I move on to 2013 and before.

If you wish to check my progress (including graded cards for this collection and prices I paid for all the cards) just click here

Here is the updated wall with the new cards added:

Hall of Fame, The Wall, Post Four

Hall of Fame, The Wall, Post Four

The Hall of Fame Challenge, Post Three

The Hall of Fame Challenge, Post Five

Anyone Remember This Promotion?

Back in 1995, in order to attract more attention to their product, Score ran a contest to win a Score Platinum Rookie Card. In the advertisement for the contest they showed a picture of Fenway Park in Boston and revealed that they planted three mistakes in the picture. If you could figure out what they were you could send a 3″ by 5″ card and a SASE to Score to receive the Platinum RC.

I found the ad. in a Beckett Baseball Card Monthly from Feb. of 1995 and I thought it might be interesting to see how many readers first remember the ad. and second can pick out the three mistakes. Here is the ad:

1995 Score Baseball Ad

Some of the wrong answers I have heard over the years are:

1) no seats above the Green Monster
2) No one in the on deck circle
3) it’s not 315 feet down the left field foul line
4) the batter is outside the batter’s box

Winners would receive one of two cards, either an Alex Rodriguez card or an Ivan Rodriguez card. They are shown below:

1995 Score AD1 Alex Rodriguez & AD2 Ivan Rodriguez

1995 Score AD1 Alex Rodriguez & AD2 Ivan Rodriguez

 

Too Many Big Macs: A Return to 1992 and the Donruss/McDonalds Cards

1992 McDonalds Donruss Display

1992 McDonalds Donruss Display

Back when I was a younger man and had a thirst for all things baseball, McDonalds partnered with Donruss to put out a set of cards for the Canadian market which would increase the sale of its sandwiches. The ’90s were a time when sports cards dominated the hobby market and baseball became a rival to hockey in Canadian collector’s minds. With the Blue Jays winning the World Series sales of baseball cards could be purchased at corner stores, gas stations, and hobby stores. Dealers carried commons to fill your sets and displayed insert and rookie cards along side their hockey counterparts. Yes it was a golden time for Canadian boys interested more in baseball than ice skates and hockey sticks.The honeymoon lasted a good four or five years before the Canadian market returned to its usual ways of leaving all sports cards except hockey by the wayside.

The 1992 Donruss McDonald’s set itself consisted of 33 cards which were identified as twenty-six MVP cards (one from each MLB team who they considered to be the team MVP), six Blue Jays Gold subset cards, and one unnumbered checklist card. These cards included stars and semi-stars and the following Hall of Famers: Cal Ripken Jr., Frank Thomas, George Brett, Nolan Ryan, Ryan Sandberg, Robin Yount, Barry Larkin, Kirby Puckett, Roberto Alomar, Ken Griffey Jr., and Ozzie Smith.

The 26 MVP cards were designed after Donruss’ regular issue of 1992 with an added MVP logo and the McDonald’s Golden Arches trademark shown on both sides of the cards. The six Blue Jays Gold cards show front full-bleed photos with gold foil stamping in a rectangular outline just inside the card edges. The backs of all 32 cards show player biographical information and recent yearly statistics and career statistics.

The cards came in a gold foil wrapper inside of which were four cards, three from the MVP set (included in the mix was also the Checklist card) and one Blue Jays Gold card. Packs could be aquired for thirty-nine cents (Canadian) with the purchase of a sandwich or breakfast entree.

Lastly, randomly inserted into packs was a redemption card which could be sent in to receive one of 1000 serial-numbered Roberto Alomar autograph cards.

1992 Donruss McDonald's MVP's Alomar Signature Card

1992 Donruss McDonald’s MVP’s Alomar Signature Card

The Alomar signature card came in a plastic holder and a letter (see the post: The Most Elusive Roberto Alomar Signature for more details).

Assembling this set was one of the highlights of my early ’90s collecting although once the promotion was finished I had a dislike for Big Macs and McChicken sandwiches. I frequented the local restaurant daily replacing my regular lunches with a McDonalds sandwich and a pack of baseball cards. I never found any redemption cards for the Alomar signature but I did accomplish both completing the regular set and gaining ten pounds.

 

 

The Hall of Fame Challenge, Post Three

Hall of Fame, The Wall, Part Three

Hall of Fame, The Wall, Part Three

The next set of Hall of Fame cards I purchased came in from COMC. I also picked up a couple of 1989 Upper Deck Factory sets which I broke open to add the Ken Griffey Jr. RC to the wall. Thirdly I found in my cards a copy of Griffey Jr.`s Donruss RC.

Here are the cards from COMC:

Latest HOF Purchases

Latest HOF Purchases

Here is a list of the new additions to the wall:

  1. 1989 Upper Deck #1 Ken Griffey Jr. RC
  2. 1989 Donruss #33 Ken Griffey Jr. RC
  3. 1989 Bowman #220 Ken Griffey Jr. RC
  4. 1989 Fleer #548 Ken Griffey Jr. RC
  5. 1992 Bowman #461 Mike Piazza RC
  6. 1989 O-Pee-Chee #186 Randy Johnson RC

The Griffey Jr. cards and the Mike Piazza card are the two players’ first cards. For Griffey Jr. Topps and Score waited until their Rookie/Traded sets to include the Mariner. Piazza was missed by everyone except Bowman. Fleer included him in their low print Update set at the end of the year, but all the other companies missed the boat completely.

I’m not sure how well informed my readers are about grading companies (I assume they are somewhat informed due to the fact that grading has been popular since the late ’90s). The Piazza card I bought from COMC was a graded card from BCCG (Beckett’s Collector’s Club grading service). I’m not sure why Beckett has this service as it is inferior and somewhat dubious in its grading practices. It actually is a stupid way to conduct business as many novice collectors are fooled into thinking the numerical grading (1-10) is equal to that of PSA. They see a lower price for the BCCG graded card and buy it not realizing it is not of equal quality to its PSA counterpart. If you come across any of these BCCG graded cards, ignore the grade and just consider it an ungraded card which you will need to inspect to get a proper grade for it.

I did this with the Piazza card I purchased for the wall. I bought a BCCG graded 10 Piazza Bowman RC for $21.30. It was in better condition than the equally priced ungraded versions of the card so it was an easy decision to purchase it and remove it from its case when I received it in the mail:

Mike Piazza Before and After

Mike Piazza Before and After

As you can see, the card is off center to the right and would probably be graded at most a PSA 9. If you wish to remove any cards from their graded case it’s quite simple. Here is an example:

Returning to the wall, I moved it to the hallway to give the dedication more space as new cards come in. You can see the new wall, with the latest cards added, at the top of this post.

The Hall of Fame Challenge, Post Two

The Hall of Fame Challenge, Post Four

Carl Crawford, The Perfect Example

Carl Crawford Red Sox Poster

Carl Crawford Red Sox Poster

I have been watching some of the LA Dodgers games this year, mostly to see the pitching, but Carl Crawford has caught my eye as well. After a hiatus of approx. 15 years from watching baseball and collecting cards, I have been reacquainting myself with the MLB. Mostly I have been looking on players who started their career around the time I stopped watching because those are the players I’m unfamiliar with.

Crawford is one of the guys I am a bit disappointed for missing out on watching his career. He is just the type of player I like most. The “Tim Raines” type of player has always been my favourite, and Crawford fits the type exactly.

1999 Topps Traded Baseball #T75 Carl Crawford Rookie Card

1999 Topps Traded Baseball #T75 Carl Crawford Rookie Card

Unfortunately, Crawford has become “The Perfect Example” of how unpredictable it is to guess Hall of Famers. Starting out in Tampa Bay becoming a regular player at the early age of 21, he seemed to be a good pick for speculation, getting a few extra rookie and insert cards seemed a good bet. When be began his tear, stealing every base known to man, and hitting around .300 with 80 to 110 runs per season, not to mention popping of some key HRs, the speculation could be seen as beginning to pay off. With only his low walk totals being a blemish (he is a lead off hitter after all), Crawford started to become a good shot to reach the Hall.

But then everything derailed. The trade from Tampa Bay to Boston made Andrew Friedman seem like a clairvoyant, as Crawford’s slow fall to injury-prone mediocre player began in his new Red Sox uniform. Since leaving Tampa, Crawford, due to injury after injury killed his career,and lost his shot to be a Hall of Famer, Similar to players such as Eric Davis, and Don Mattingly, Crawford can be added to a long list of Hall of Fame talent killed off by injury.

1999 Bowman Chrome #440 Carl Crawford Rookie Card

1999 Bowman Chrome #440 Carl Crawford Rookie Card

Crawford Just turned 34 in August, so perhaps I am a bit premature, If he returns to play like he did in Tampa for the 2016 season and stays in that form for another 7 or more years, getting at least 150 hits per year, and stealing another 150 to 200 bases, both possible but remotely achievable, then Crawford could turn his whole career around. But if he can’t play uninjured now at 34 years old then the likelihood of him staying injury-free until his 41st birthday is remote.

But damn, it would have been fun to watch him during his Tampa years, I’m sad I missed it.

The Collectors Choice Magazine by Upper Deck, Was It Ever Made?

1991 Upper Deck The Collector's Choice Magazine Offer Card

1991 Upper Deck The Collector’s Choice Magazine Offer Card

I came across some advert cards (see above) in a box of random 91 UD baseball, and 90-91 UD hockey, that I bought off a guy recently. On these cards it advertises that you could get Upper Deck’s first premiere issue of something called The Collectors Choice Magazine. All you had to do was send in this card after you filled out your address etc. on the reverse of the card.

With the popularity of Upper Deck cards at the time (1991) I would assume many people sent in these cards to get the free magazine. Yet looking all over the internet I can’t find one listing or sales offer for this magazine. Did Upper Deck actually print this magazine and distribute it to those who filled out and sent in the card?

Beckett Magazine, Once Great Now Irrelevant

Beckett Magazine Covers

Beckett Magazine Covers

Being an avid Beckett magazine collector, I thought it was depressing when Beckett was sold off in 2005 and it seemed to change. Presently, there is a large contingent of sports card collectors who find Beckett tarnished and bad for the hobby. Suing everyone from COMC to Zistle seems to be what’s fueling this antagonism, but that may just be the latest gripe in a long list of gripes that hobbyists have had for Beckett. Another guess may be that Beckett charges too much for their online website features.

Personally, I really enjoyed Beckett once the print magazine became a glossy, beautifully photographed, and article-driven publication. I had little interest in the ups and downs of the price guide as I always decided myself what to pay for a card or cards not relying on the magazine to dictate what a card was worth. The price guide which although always tried to be accurate, never really was. What I do love about price guides was their checklists as this information helped you find missing cards and inserts that you may not have known about.

I could never quite decide on whether Beckett monthly was good or bad for the hobby. There were price guides before Beckett, that were put out on a yearly basis, which was fine, as they were mostly used as intended, a guide, not a bible on prices. If you wanted to buy a certain card for 150.00 and a dealer was selling it for 250.00, rarely did the dealer or the buyer pull out the yearly guide to show the other the price. When Beckett came out with a monthly price guide, it stopped being a guide really, everyone used it to buy and sell cards. If a card was over Beckett price, the dealer was accused of gouging his customers, if it was below Beckett the dealer was thought of as ignorant or dumb. The guide became somewhat a straight jacket on the flexibility of dealers to price their own merchandise. Which is ironic because it’s the dealers which would send in pricing to Beckett through their magazine survey.

It is my informed opinion that you can fault or congratulate Beckett for doing one thing. Inadvertently increasing the cost of purchasing sports cards and other memorabilia. How so you may ask? Well with a readily available monthly price guide, people were more confident in buying cards. There was less guess work for investors and collectors as the prices were right there in the magazine. This increased sales of cards. Not only for new product, but also for older cards. The movement of cards from one person to another increased and at each stop, the card usually went up in price. This pricing info was sent to Beckett and Beckett reflected it in their guide.

Before, if you bought a card you needed experience and knowledge to pay a good price. So many were wary to buy a card at a price above their comfort zone (whatever that happened to be at the time). Many collectors were scared of being ripped off so they would pass at high priced cards or barter for a lower price. It’s why before Beckett Monthly became popular, you could have rookie cards of HOF players in the tens or low hundreds of dollars, with the few elite players card in the thousands. After Beckett popularity these cards dramatically increased in price. One person would buy a card for 50.00 and resell it 2 months later for 100.00. Then the card would be again resold for 200.00 in another few months. Why did this happen? Because Beckett’s guide made everyone able to understand what cards were out there, which were the most desired ones, and how best to find them. Beckett magazine was one of a few factors that made baseball cards more expensive to collect. It made everything more efficient and turnover of cards was quicker. Upper Deck’s entry in 1989 and the Gretzky/McNall T206 Wagner card purchase for $450k in 1991 were two other factors. All these factors led to 1000s of new collectors coming into the hobby which was the catalyst for the increase across the board for the prices of cards. If you ever want to promote a hobby, standardize it with a catalog and especially a price guide and prices for these collectibles will most likely rise.

Beckett didn’t fix prices but they helped popularize the hobby and made it easier for sellers each month to push the boundary of Beckett’s High price a little each month. Bartering was a common occurrence before Beckett Monthly, but after it decreased as buyers and especially sellers would not negotiate as much. Sellers would often say to me, “Why are you trying to barter with me? it’s already priced reasonably, just check the guide.”

By 1993 I mostly gave up on collecting cads. But I continued to read the magazine, reading the front then flipping quickly over the price guide in the middle to find the articles at the back. but slowly over time the magazine got thicker, and thicker, and the articles got fewer and fewer. as they were cannibalized by the price guide. Then the print got smaller and smaller until you needed a magnifying glass to read the price guide when you were trying to organize your base set, inserts, parallels etc. and see what rare cards were available in the different sets.

Now the magazine is mostly irrelevant. The price guide is pointless. Monthly pricing is passe as daily pricing can be had by looking at online auction sales. When the time came to choose between a monthly print magazine full of articles on the hobby, or pricing on the thousands upon thousand of new cards issued each year, Beckett chose the latter and lost a majority of its subscribers. Even moving the pricing online didn’t clue them in that a printed monthly guide is irrelevant and what they should do is make a magazine with stories rather than prices.

Beckett did get a clue when they published a couple of magazines called Beckett Vintage Collector Magazine last year, It contains articles without a price guide, let’s hope they continue to do this.

Beckett Vintage Collector Magazine

Beckett Vintage Collector Magazine

The Curious Case of Clark and Palmeiro

Clark and Palmeiro Graded Cards

Clark and Palmeiro Graded Cards

Will Clark and Rafael Palmeiro will always be linked since they both were team mates of and both came to the Majors through Mississippi State University. They were nicknamed “Thunder & Lightening” at the time. Both born in 1964 (Clark March 13th, Palmeiro September 24th, they were both drafted in 1985. Clark went in the 1st round, 2nd pick by the Giants, and Palmeiro followed 20 picks later by the Cubs. Both took the first basemen’s job when they settled in the Majors. Clark stayed with the Giants most of his career (with a few years in Baltimore) while Palmeiro left Chicago to play most of his career as a Ranger (with some of his best years also in Baltimore).

Clark & Palmeiro Mississippi State Baseball

Clark & Palmeiro Mississippi State Baseball

When Palmeiro left Texas to join the Orioles in 1994, Clark took over the position (leaving San Francisco). When Clark left Texas after the 1998 season, Palmeiro returned to the Rangers to replace him. And where did Clark go? You guessed it, he went to Baltimore to replace Palmeiro.

In so many ways the two were interlinked and carbon-copied. Both hit for average, both hit for extra bases, both were left-handed, both were great defensively at first base (gold gloves for both). And both it ended up, but for different reasons, were dropped quickly from Hall of Fame voting. Clark received only 4.4% of the votes in his first year of eligibility (2006) so was dropped from the ballot (you need at least 5% to stay on the list.. Palmeiro survived his first year (11% in 2011) but failed the following year with, you guessed it, 4.4% of the vote.

Clark & Palmeiro at Mississippi State

Clark & Palmeiro at Mississippi State

1989 Fleer #631 Clark & Palmeiro

1989 Fleer #631 Clark & Palmeiro

In college, Clark was the star, Palmeiro the shadow. In the Majors it seemed the same would occur. Clark got the headlines, the All Star votes, and MVP considerations, while Palmeiro got little press in Chicago. Palmeiro, in 1994, was not resigned by Texas because the Rangers signed Clark. And that was where everything changed. Palmeiro went on to find a power stroke (most likely with the help of steroids) hitting 569 HRs for his career (compared to Clark’s 284), had nine straight years with over 100 RBIs (10 total), Clark had one (4 total), and became a force in the A.L. while Clark, from injuries and wear-and-tear (and because he didn’t juice) slowly declined in production until he retired at 36 after the 2000 season. Palmeiro continued playing until 2005 at the age of 40 before retiring, becoming one of only five players in the history of baseball to achieve 500 HRs and 3000 Hits (Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Eddie Murray and Alex Rodriguez).

Will Clark, later on, through the Veteran’s Committee, might get a 2nd look, but that i think is remote althugh he did have some great years:

1988 .287 29 HR 109 RBI
1989 .333 23 HR 111 RBI
1991 .301 29 HR 116 RBI
1998 .305 23 HR 102 RBI

But his career totals, low HRs without reaching 3000 hits show he is just under the threshold to be inducted, perhaps:

15 Yrs, 2176 Hits, 284 HRs, .303 AVG

As for Palmeiro, his lie to congress about steroid use will keep him out just like it has with Bonds, McGwire and others. Palmeiro was always a doubles hitter with some power, just like Clark, then out of nowhere, past his prime years, he begins to hit HRs in the 40s, not the 20s which would be his norm, not the 30s which would happen occasionally when he did reach his prime in his late 20s, but totals like 39, 39, 38, 43, 47, 39, 47, 43 and 38 (ages 30 to 38). There is an outside chance he just developed into a better hitter over time, but going from the high tens and low twenties when he was younger, to the 40s when he was reaching the end of his career seems implausible. If you look at Bonds you see the same trajectory.

Palmeiro Testifying

Palmeiro Testifying

Many collectors in the late 80s early 90s were all over Clark (and then later in the 90s Palmeiro) collecting all their rookie cards and first cards but like Mattingly before them, they both wound up disappointing these collectors. Myself, not collecting for investment purposes, wasn’t upset with them at all, I just had fun watching them on TV. Although I would’ve put money down back in the early 90s that Clark would eventually reach the Hall. Although it’s remote, I still might end up right.

The Most Elusive Roberto Alomar Signature

1992 Donruss McDonald's MVP's Alomar Signature Card

1992 Donruss McDonald’s MVP’s Alomar Signature Card

1992 Donruss McDonald's MVP's Alomar Signature Congrat. Letter

1992 Donruss McDonald’s MVP’s Alomar Signature Congrat. Letter

If you are an autograph collector, especially for autographs on baseball cards, and you also like Hall of Famers, then the 1992 Donruss/McDonald’s Roberto Alomar signature card is something you may want to pursue. Not only is it Alomar’s first signature card, it is also one of the rarest. Back in 1992, Donruss and McDonalds teamed up to distribute four card packs of “MVP” cards. This set consisted of 26 regular cards (one player from each MLB team), a checklist card, and 6 “Blue Jays Gold” insert cards.

Randomly inserted into these 4-card packs was one of 1000 redemption cards good for an Alomar signature card. Only 1000 of these signed cards exist. They are very rare. In the last 5 years on ebay I have only seen the card appear three times. the back of the card has a hand written number beside a printed 1000, so the cards are serial-numbered.

1992 Donruss McDonald's MVP's Alomar Signature Card Encased

1992 Donruss McDonald’s MVP’s Alomar Signature Card Encased

It is hard to gauge a proper price for the card as I said due to it rarely showing up. But also because it is a Canadian card. Like O-Pee-Chee cards, many American buyers avoid cards printed outside the USA because of their thinking that they are all odd-ball cards.The first time I saw the card (2011) it sold for $100.00. The second time I saw it (2013), it listed at $300.00 but went unsold. The third time I saw it (presently), it has a list price of $499.95. Myself, I would think it’s worth around $100.00-$150.00. What would you pay for it?